Kelly Higgins-Devine (00:00):
Don’t you want just lots of fun, lots of food, a bit of alcohol? And you might do a bit of gambling, as well, but passengers who’ve racked up debts on so-called gambling cruises, are speaking with compensation lawyers about taking legal action to recover their money.

(00:19):
They claim they were encouraged to gamble while drunk, and then prevented from leaving ships if their debts were unpaid. Now, this follows the death of a man who jumped overboard from P&O’s Pacific Adventure, over what a family member has claimed was a gambling debt, racked up over two nights on the ship.

(00:37):
Peter Carter is a tourism and travel compensation lawyer with Carter Capner Law. Peter, good afternoon.

Peter Carver (00:43):
Good afternoon, Kelly.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (00:44):
How many passengers have you had come to you with these sort of claims about cruises?

Peter Carver (00:49):
Well, when I last looked about an hour ago, there were about 20 who’d registered their interest in what we’re doing in our investigation.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (00:57):
What are they saying the cruise ship operators are doing?

Peter Carver (01:01):
Well, firstly, I’d like to correct that they’re not gambling cruises, they’re regular-

Kelly Higgins-Devine (01:06):
Yes, cruises. Yeah.

Peter Carver (01:08):
… holiday cruises. Well, there are a number of complaints, firstly, that there are allowed automatic credit, without having to go through any application process, or determination as to their suitability to be allowed that credit.

(01:24):
And then, being allowed to gamble while they’re intoxicated is another issue. That’s certainly not allowed in Australia.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (01:33):
Yup.

Peter Carver (01:33):
And what we need to know also is the adequacy of the systems they have to detect problem gamblers. And then, there’s a system of rewards and incentives for gambling activity. Now, that’s not unheard of, but we need to examine exactly the context in which that’s occurring here.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (01:52):
Peter, what sort of things are being put out there as lures?

Peter Carver (01:58):
Free cruises. That’s the big one.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (02:04):
Yeah.

Peter Carver (02:05):
I’ve heard of high rollers in casinos here, getting all sorts of benefits, but a free cruise for an elderly passenger …

Kelly Higgins-Devine (02:14):
For that person, yeah, that’s a big thing.

Peter Carver (02:18):
It is a big thing. And remember, the average fare on some of these is $1,200. So a debt of $3,000 is very unwelcome territory, for most of the passengers who’d be cruising.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (02:39):
What sort of debts are they racking up, Peter?

Peter Carver (02:42):
Well, we’re hearing $3,000 is not uncommon.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (02:48):
Goodness, that’s a lot of money, isn’t it? For a gambling debt?

Peter Carver (02:53):
Let me just correct that.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (02:53):
Yup.

Peter Carver (02:54):
The point is that they’re allowed $3,000 credit.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (02:57):
Yip.

Peter Carver (02:58):
The debts range up to that. So the credit is what’s concerning, and the circumstances in which that’s occurring. Of course, our investigation is to verify all these details, and create a matrix of the different complaints, to determine whether there’s a degree of commonality, and then, determine what legal relief might apply.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (03:24):
Peter Carter is a tourism and travel compensation lawyer with Carter Capner Law. You’re on 612 ABC Brisbane.

(03:30):
It’s 16 past 4:00. I’m Kelly Higgins-Devine, and we’re hearing about passengers who go on cruises, they’re encouraged to gamble, they’re giving $3,000 credit lines, and then, we’re hearing that they’re stopped from getting off the boats, Peter. How often is that happening?

Peter Carver (03:48):
Well, we’ve had a couple of the people who’ve inquired as to say that they were put through the third degree, before they were allowed to disembark. Now, there’s nothing wrong with asking, “Look, when are you going to settle this bill?”

Kelly Higgins-Devine (04:01):
Yeah.

Peter Carver (04:01):
But anything more than that is illegal. It’s unlawful imprisonment. So we need to look into those sort of practices, as well. That occurred in Australia.

(04:16):
The point about the gambling activity is that it only happens on the high seas, outside Australian territorial waters. So the cruise lines appear to be of the view that anything goes there.

(04:29):
My view is, that’s not correct, and that the law of the ship’s flag state where it’s registered applies. And Pacific Adventure is, that the flag state of that vessel is United Kingdom, which certainly does have consumer protection laws, and hence, the need to look into these issues.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (04:52):
So Peter, I’ve got to ask the question. They’re adults. Where does personal responsibility come into this?

Peter Carver (04:59):
Sure, they are adults, and they know the risks, but we know that allowing people to gamble why they’re intoxicated is not permitted in Australia. I’d be surprised if it’s permitted under United Kingdom law.

(05:19):
So the point is, it’s not the case that anything goes. There are still rules to prevent vulnerabilities being preyed on. That’s the purpose of what we’re doing.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (05:30):
Yeah.

Peter Carver (05:31):
We do a lot of work in this space with travel compensation claims, so this is sort of in our backyard, and that’s why we have an interest in uncovering exactly what the practices are, and doing something about it.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (05:48):
Yeah. Has any case like this been tested anywhere else around the world, as to what the rules are?

Peter Carver (05:57):
No, but the development of strong consumer protection laws, of which Australia is one of the leaders worldwide, has created new opportunities to obtain relief in these novel types of situations.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (06:18):
So, depending what happens with this, if you have a gambling debt, and they’ve broken UK law, if it applies, once it goes through the courts, you may not have a gambling debt anymore?

Peter Carver (06:33):
Well, the loss would be, it depends on the circumstances of the automatic credit arrangement for some passengers.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (06:43):
Yup.

Peter Carver (06:44):
And for others, it would depend on the extent of the losses during intoxication. So it’s not as matter of simply saying, “No, you don’t have a debt.” And for those who were prevented from disembarking, if they were prevented, other issues apply, other measures apply.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (07:06):
Interesting. Do you think it’ll change the behavior of the cruise line at all?

Peter Carver (07:12):
I certainly hope it will. I certainly hope that the standards improve, particularly in relation to automatic credit, and the policing of problem gamblers, and people gambling while intoxicated. Remember, it’s not just their money. It affects families.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (07:34):
Yes.

Peter Carver (07:35):
So it’s an important issue of social responsibility.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (07:40):
Certainly, as well. If people have had this happen, how can they get in touch with you?

Peter Carver (07:47):
Well, they can log onto our website, cartercapnerlaw.com.au, or just search “cruise ship gambling losses.” We need more passengers to contact us, so we’ve got the parameters of what we need to investigate, and to put the hard word on the cruise ship companies, in a range of cases. And we need that, to get typical complaints.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (08:22):
All right. Good talking with you, Peter Carter. Thank you.

Peter Carver (08:22):
Thank you.

Kelly Higgins-Devine (08:25):
Kelly Peter Carter, a tourism and travel compensation lawyer with Carter Capner Law.

(08:30):
Now, we did approach P&O, which is operated by Carnival Cruise Lines, for an interview this afternoon, around its gambling policies. We were told no one would be available.

(08:38):
Instead, we were sent this statement. And it said, “It would be inappropriate for P&O Cruises Australia to comment while there is a coroner’s investigation underway. We are cooperating fully with that inquiry. We have responsible gaming conduct policies on all ships, and take those policies seriously. We encourage any guest with concerns to get in contact with us, so that we can investigate.”