Gary (00:00):
Haven’t been on a cruise ship lately. And now look, if these, if these allegations I’m about to tell you about are true, some of our biggest cruise lines could well be in a spot of bother. There’s currently a coronial investigation looking into the death of a bloke who allegedly jumped overboard from P&O’s Pacific Adventure ship on May 6th. You would’ve seen that on the news. Jumped overboard. And it’s been alleged that P&O conducted misleading and deceptive conduct with regards to the gambling practices which led to this bloke’s death. There’s a lot to the story. We’re going to hear as best we can, both sides of it.

(00:44):
But the ramifications for gambling practices throughout our tourism sector may well be coming front and center. Now I want to bring in a leading tourism and compensation lawyer of Peter Carter, who’s the director of Carter Capner Law. Peter, g’day. Good to talk with you.

Peter Carter (01:00):
G’day, Gary.

Gary (01:01):
I mean, this is a serious story, so can you set the scene for us? I mean, how has this issue come about?

Peter Carter (01:09):
Well, look, the recent events showed the tragedy of gambling losses to people in situations where they weren’t necessarily expecting to be put in that position. So that’s brought it to a climax, and I believe the practices of the cruise ships needs to be examined.

Gary (01:30):
So this is the allegation, that this bloke got on the board, the Pacific Adventure, and there was a gambling debt that accrued over the time he was on board. Is that the accusation?

Peter Carter (01:44):
Well, there’s more to it than that. He’s sure he was an adult and that obviously knew there’s risks associated with gambling. But the matters that need to be looked at are the provision of automatic credit to passengers on board without having to go through any application process or consider their suitability for that type of credit. There’s question of them being allowed to gamble when they’re intoxicated. That’s certainly not permitted in Australia. And there was a question about whatever systems, if any, they had to detect from [inaudible 00:02:20] gamblers, and then they had a whole system of incentivizing and encouraging people to gamble. Now, that’s not unknown in the gambling industry, but I believe in this context it needs to be examined.

(02:36):
And then finally, there’s the strong armed tactics when people come to leave the cruise of saying, “Well, hold on, you’re not getting off until you pay this money.” So that all needs to be looked at in my opinion. I don’t think it’s kosher and we want to examine the cruise ship’s conduct and the propriety of the whole process.

Gary (03:01):
So there’s a coronial inquest into this bloke’s death, and that’s understandable. What evidence have we got of the sort of debt that he actually accrued?

Peter Carter (03:14):
Look, I’m not in touch with the family directly, but so I only know as much as you do about that, the book of it being in the 3000 to $5,000 mark, which when you think about it, some of these fairs are only $1,000. So the extent of debt, is quite much more than many of those passengers could handle.

Gary (03:41):
Yeah. So you’re saying that some of the incentivized approaches that were used to keep him gambling may not fit within what would normally be the Australian approach to these things? Is that the kind of thing that we now need to find out a bit more about? I mean, we’ve got a statement from P&O about that, which I’ll read in a moment, but they’re the sorts of questions you want to have answered.

Peter Carter (04:09):
That’s right. The position is all this happened on the high seas outside Australian territorial waters. So it’s a question of what law applied there. And the law is that the ship flag state law applies, in other words, Pacific Adventure is a UK… Under the UK flag. UK, the United Kingdom has its own consumer protection laws. So we want to examine whether those consumer protection laws were followed or complied with in terms of allowing people to gamble in those sort of situations. Intoxicated, which is not permitted. I imagine we haven’t completed our investigation, obviously, only just starting, whether that’s permitted in the United Kingdom. I doubt it is. And we want to look at the idea of the automatic credit, but a lot of other ships are registered in Bermuda. Bermuda has a consumer protection law as well. So the cruise ship companies believe, I think, that anything goes on the high seas, but in my opinion, that’s not correct.

Gary (05:21):
I know there’s some countries that don’t allow any form of gambling on their territorial, their terra firma if you like. And so they hop on ships and go 20 miles out to sea and anything goes, and then they come back in and say, “You beauty, I’ve left my shirt on board because I lost that, but I’m back.” So as you say, anything happen might go on the high seas, but how certain can we be that P&O’s actions actually included, preventing him disembarking the ship? I mean, that’s kind of like holding someone to ransom really.

Peter Carter (05:59):
Well, look, it’s not unreasonable to say, “Look, you got a debt here, $3,000, just let us know when you’re going to pay.” But anything more than that would be considered unlawful imprisonment. So if he was given the third degree, and we just don’t know, we’re assembling all the inquiries we’re getting and to determine the scope of the different practices and the different allegations before we can come to any conclusion.

Gary (06:34):
Okay. So it could lead to a class action. That’s really what you could be gathering people who’ve got similar stories to tell.

Peter Carter (06:42):
It could be, but look, we do a lot of work in this space in relation to cruise ship litigation and travel litigation. So it’s in our backyard. So in our view, it’s worth investigating because it’s just not kosher, in my opinion.

Gary (07:06):
All right, Peter, good to talk with you. Thank you so much. Peter Carter from Carter Capner Law. In a statement of 4BC, P&O cruises have made it very plain. They have responsible gambling conduct policies on all issues, and they take the matter very seriously. I’m sure they do. P&O have been around a long time. P&O have said this is a statement that they wish to attribute to a spokesperson for the company. It would be inappropriate for P&O Cruises Australia to comment while there is a coroner’s investigation underway. They say they are cooperating fully with that inquiry. P&O says they have a responsible gambling conduct policies on all ships, take the policies seriously, and they encourage any guest with concerns to get in contact with them so they can investigate. That’s from P&O.

(07:58):
I guess the other thing I should say, and it’s awful because this bloke has fallen off the ship, the inquiry’s underway. See what happens. There’s a national gambling help line. You can contact that. You can call 1800 858 858 and if you or someone you know need support at any time, for any reason, the lifeline number remains 13 11 14. It’s 11 to four.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Traffic.